Chapter 6 – The Red Line

0:05Speaker 1:My name is Trim and this is Saigon, the story of my family and of the country that shaped us.

0:14Speaker 2:The United States will not stand by and allow any.

0:18Speaker 3:Power, however, break take over another time.

0:23Speaker 4:Orange has brought only confusion and.

0:32Speaker 5:Bewill money'll break it out.

0:34Speaker 4:Rand a bad very baby sounded. There can be no peace without justice, and that can be no justice without peace.

0:46Speaker 6:Chapter six.

0:56Speaker 4:Probably be a whole out of commencing descent over target.

0:59Speaker 1:In two minutes in nineteen sixty four, two American Navy ships in the Gulf of Tonkin were apparently attacked by Communist missiles. Whether they actually were or not has been debated ever since.

1:14Speaker 4:Calling me down to five thousand feet.

1:16Speaker 1:But it was all that President Johnson needed to declare open war on North Vietnam.

1:22Speaker 4:Wait for God.

1:29Speaker 6:Very Christmas handling Operation Rolling Thunder.

1:35Speaker 1:The relentless bombing of the North would continue for years. Meanwhile, life carried on in Saigon much as before. The true horrors of war had yet to reach the southern capital.

1:57Speaker 3:Excuse me, yes, I'm looking for Colonel Michael Tench Joseph Sherman. I have an appointment.

2:04Speaker 4:Ah, it's not colonel anymore.

2:06Speaker 3:Oh, General, No, we don't.

2:09Speaker 5:Have ranks in CIA.

2:11Speaker 4:In fact, we don't even acknowledge me our CIA.

2:13Speaker 5:Oh but I'm told you.

2:15Speaker 4:To go way back.

2:16Speaker 3:We do.

2:17Speaker 4:We do through there, mister Sherman. He's expecting you.

2:21Speaker 3:Thank you, Mike, Joseph, come in, come in. Hey, so good to see you again.

2:35Speaker 1:Michael tench had been one of the military advisors America had sent to Vietnam in nineteen forty five. He and Joseph had spent three months together training Ho Chiman's soldiers to fight the Japanese.

2:48Speaker 4:What have you been up to.

2:49Speaker 2:You're still working for Associated Press.

2:51Speaker 3:No, no, I'm with the Joint Public Affairs Office now. They needed a press secretary and I needed to change the pace. So here we are.

2:59Speaker 2:Hope they're taking good care of you.

3:00Speaker 3:I can't complain. I have a colonial residence and a housekeeper, you know, per diems, the whole deal yourself. When I heard you were back in Saigon, I thought, well, he's keeping a low profile.

3:12Speaker 2:I have to I'm afraid that's the nature of my.

3:15Speaker 3:New job CIA Chief of Stations. Oh so yeah, congratulations.

3:21Speaker 7:Yeah, well it might become a poison chalice, but we'll see how we go.

3:27Speaker 2:Drink loved one. It's no surprise someone like you guessed the truth, but I'd rather not advertise it.

3:34Speaker 3:Yeah, no, I understand if asked. You're an embassy attache.

3:39Speaker 2:Perfect, thank you.

3:41Speaker 3:Yeah.

3:41Speaker 2:How's a family your boy, Gary, wasn't it?

3:46Speaker 3:Yes? Gary, he's here, in fact, on his third tour of duty with the eleventh Infantry Brigade.

3:52Speaker 2:Good.

3:52Speaker 3:Yeah, and the wife's okay, yeah, yeah, it's fine.

3:57Speaker 7:Here you go, oh good health cheers.

4:04Speaker 2:Yeah.

4:05Speaker 3:Then Mike, of course there's my daughter, the one I wrote to.

4:08Speaker 2:You about trying to land too yet.

4:11Speaker 3:Yes, yes, I'm sorry if it sounded pushy, you know, I was.

4:16Speaker 2:Just all no, no.

4:17Speaker 7:If old friends can't ask each other for help, the world's become a very sad place.

4:21Speaker 2:I get the frustration.

4:22Speaker 3:Thanks, thank you.

4:24Speaker 2:When did Gary see her?

4:26Speaker 3:Nineteen sixty three? I'm patrolling the Mekong Delta.

4:30Speaker 7:And the last time you saw was nineteen fifty six.

4:34Speaker 3:That's right.

4:35Speaker 7:Then, your son saw fleeting Lee in sixty three, and now five years later, you've still got no idea where she is.

4:44Speaker 3:Yeah, not a clue, which is why I wondered if the CIA knew anything.

4:52Speaker 7:Okay, what we do know is She's one of the Viet Cong's most effective fighters, responsible for planning dozens of attacks, and she's good and highly regarded. We've never been able to infiltrate any of her teams. They come out of nowhere and then vanish before we have time to respond. That's what we know. And now for the last few months, nothing feels like someone heard that we really wanted to find her and told.

5:25Speaker 2:Her to keep her head down.

5:26Speaker 3:You've got a move.

5:28Speaker 7:Not in the office here, there's been no breach of operational security, but we've got assets all over the place in Saigon, and well, frankly, i'd be surprised if at least one or two of them aren't double agents for the viet Cong. We arrest all the ones we find, but you arrest one and two more take their place. Yeah, anyway, we both want to find her, Joseph, so.

5:54Speaker 2:I'll let you know if we get a tip.

5:56Speaker 3:Yeah, but it's.

5:57Speaker 2:The Ted holiday next week.

5:58Speaker 3:I know, I know goes home right.

6:01Speaker 7:Exactly, so nothing will happen till after that at the earliest.

6:05Speaker 3:Okay, Well, thanks, Mike, I appreciate the favor.

6:09Speaker 2:No problem.

6:12Speaker 7:Actually know, as it happens, I have a favor to ask in return.

6:18Speaker 3:Oh yeah, let's.

6:20Speaker 2:Go for a drive. I'll tell you on the way. There you go. Where are we going?

6:33Speaker 7:Secret detention facility inside the US military prison Okay, not far right, actually away from prying years. There is something else you should know about your daughter. What she got married. It's another Viet Con fighter. Oh, they had a daughter in fifty eight. She'd be about nine or ten now.

7:02Speaker 2:Oh h he.

7:04Speaker 7:Got killed on the Cambodian border a few years back. The daughter is still alive though somewhere.

7:12Speaker 3:Wow, what what's her name?

7:17Speaker 2:We don't know, just between us.

7:21Speaker 8:Right, yeah, yeah, of course, General.

7:36Speaker 2:Id Michael Tench.

7:41Speaker 3:Well, thank you, mister Tan.

7:47Speaker 7:There's one prisoner here who hasn't said a word since he was captured a couple of years back.

7:53Speaker 2:But he was high up.

7:55Speaker 7:In the pecking order with Ho Chi Minh, so he knows a lot about the whole via cong structure and strategy.

8:03Speaker 2:You just got to get him to tell us.

8:06Speaker 7:Physical pain was never going to make him talk, though, so we started trying psychological pressure.

8:12Speaker 2:He kept in a white.

8:13Speaker 7:Room alone, isolated the continual light.

8:19Speaker 2:It's here this way.

8:26Speaker 7:I only set eyes on him A couple of weeks ago when I first started this job, and when I looked at it, I was sure I'd seen him somewhere.

8:35Speaker 2:Sarah, thank you, thank you.

8:38Speaker 7:And then I remembered when we were in the jungle together training Ho Chi Min's soldiers. A patrol came back on the last day, and you knew the leader. It'd been someone you'd known in Saigon years earlier. No, and weird detail. He doesn't have any balls cut them off years ago, apparently, so nothing could distract him from the cause.

9:04Speaker 3:Transvend Kim, that's him.

9:07Speaker 7:I think it's him, and if it is, we have to see if.

9:11Speaker 2:He'll talk to you.

9:14Speaker 7:Corporal Sir, can you let mister Sherman in?

9:17Speaker 4:Yes, Sir, mister Sherman, when I open the door, just take one step forward and stay behind the red line at all times.

9:25Speaker 9:Ready.

9:27Speaker 1:Yeah, Joseph stepped inside. The thin red line was at his feet, but the rest of the walls, ceiling, floor were all bright white, and sitting motionless on the ground was a thin figure with a long, wispy beard.

9:50Speaker 3:Kim, Kim, it's me Joseph, your old friend.

10:02Speaker 1:It had been twelve long years since Land's funeral procession, but there was no mistaking the piercing eyes and familiar face in front of him.

10:13Speaker 3:How are you, my friend? The last time we met, we were talking about betrayal and loyalty, and given your contempt for those who betray their friends and comrades, well, I'm guessing I've got no chance of getting you to betray yours. But yeah, you know, Kimble, one thing you didn't give me a chance to say. Back then. I did talk to Paul about your sister land and me, and he was glad that I made her happy because he knew he hadn't and couldn't. So what you saw is betrayal. He respected his honesty. Yeah, being open about our passions and not denying them is not betrayal, Kim. Yeah, it's not a betrayal. Can we talk about your passions, Kim?

11:28Speaker 3:My passion.

11:30Speaker 4:Is to see Vietnam free a fall foreign occupation.

11:35Speaker 3:Joseph, Yes, yes, But all Ho Chi Minh has to do is agree to elections a democratic government, and then we'd go.

11:46Speaker 4:He would be gone one day anyway, without us having to agree to anything.

11:53Speaker 3:Are you sure that you speak for Ho Chi Minh on this? Could we ask him together?

12:04Speaker 8:All right?

12:06Speaker 3:Okay? Before I go, though, Kim, do you know where I could find two yet? Is there anyone I could ask? Or somewhere I could go? Okay, okay, something Kim, please a hint, a clue please? She's my daughter, my daughter two yet? Please? Just somewhere I can go something, Just someone I can talk Kim, A clue, a hint.

12:43Speaker 6:Please, Kim said nothing more.

12:59Speaker 1:Michael t Op to Joseph ar outside his villa.

13:02Speaker 3:Yeah, thanks, Mike. Sorry, I couldn't get any more for you, so worth a try.

13:09Speaker 2:Thanks, buddy, look after yourself.

13:15Speaker 1:Joseph hesitated at his front door. He could have an early night alone, or the Continental Hotel bar was only a block away.

13:29Speaker 2:Another?

13:31Speaker 3:Yeah, why not? Hey, buddy, got a life?

13:41Speaker 8:Thanks jam join us if you like?

13:44Speaker 3:No, no thanks?

13:46Speaker 4:Would you like any foods?

13:47Speaker 5:Trim Kraka, rice ball?

13:49Speaker 9:What?

13:50Speaker 3:No? No thanks? Sir?

13:53Speaker 5:The gentleman at that table over there, I believe he has a message for you. What you'll go, missus?

14:07Speaker 9:Salmon?

14:08Speaker 3:I'm sorry?

14:09Speaker 4:You want a girl?

14:10Speaker 3:Yes? No, no, no, I don't want a girl.

14:14Speaker 4:No a special girl. You're special girl. You've been looking for her?

14:21Speaker 3:How do you have you been tailing me?

14:24Speaker 4:Doesn't matter you want girl? You mean too yet name? Whatever you tell no one? I give you a place you tell no one, yes, especially not c I a man you with today?

14:38Speaker 3:No no one?

14:40Speaker 2:Where Where is she? You read?

14:43Speaker 3:Go here? That's all I have.

14:46Speaker 4:I go Okay.

14:51Speaker 1:Joseph looked down at the torn slip of paper. It was a street address.

14:57Speaker 6:In a city called way Quay, was in the.

15:03Speaker 1:Center of Vietnam, one thousand kilometers north of Saigon. Joseph had wondered if he could trust this cloak and dagger stuff, or whether he should tell Mike Tench, But he couldn't entirely trust what the CIA might do if they found two yet either. So he had gone with his instincts and flown up on his own. The well dressed Vietnamese man beside him picked up on his tension.

15:31Speaker 10:This is your first time in huey, sir, Oh, yes, military?

15:39Speaker 8:No, No, No civilian.

15:42Speaker 10:He's rare to see an American civilian.

15:45Speaker 3:This far north. Well, uh, I'm a journalist, ah doing a story on how things are going outside Saigon.

15:54Speaker 10:Well you will fire. Things are going very well in Hue Everything is opened, hotels, restaurant shops. It is a good place for business. And I do business everywhere. War or no war, everyone is still in your trade.

16:13Speaker 3:But whoay is home?

16:15Speaker 8:Where is home?

16:16Speaker 10:I'm coming home for that, you know that? Is it like you America? And it's like Thanksgiving?

16:25Speaker 3:Yes, I know it will be a good week.

16:27Speaker 10:To visit where everyone is on holiday?

16:32Speaker 3:Where are you staying? I'm not sure yet. I'm hoping to catch up with a friend who I think is there here this place.

16:44Speaker 1:Joseph handed over the address he'd been given for two yet, a street in the family law quarter of Way.

16:51Speaker 3:Oh.

16:52Speaker 10:I wouldn't stay in this area, sir, A bad part of the town, full of thieves and prostitute. Be very careful here, miss.

17:11Speaker 1:Despite the warning, Joseph took a cab straight to the address he'd been given, a block of rum down apartments with the bar on the kromme how.

17:24Speaker 9:One tonight one?

17:35Speaker 11:Well, hello, mister American dream whiskey.

17:39Speaker 3:Thanks midcom or Jake Daniel me Cock, Thanks and excuse me. I'm looking for a woman.

17:50Speaker 6:What sort of woman?

17:52Speaker 3:Her name's Tran t Lant. I was told I might find her here. Take a shit, I'll bring your drink over and ask a row.

18:04Speaker 1:Thank you, Joseph sat at a table and waited a French movie played on a TV in the corner.

18:19Speaker 3:Want me called, Yeah, thank you to ya?

18:24Speaker 6:What are you doing here, Joseph?

18:27Speaker 3:Oh my god, at last. You don't know how hard I tried to find you.

18:34Speaker 6:What do you want you?

18:36Speaker 3:I don't know it. It's been twelve years. Oh it's okay. No one knows I'm here. I don't even know who gave me the address. Someone connected with the Viet Cong. I suppose are are you still with the Viet Cong?

18:53Speaker 6:Let's go.

18:54Speaker 3:Come on, yeah, okay.

19:03Speaker 11:Come in. You can't stay long. If anyone's eesy here, I'll be accused of being an American spy.

19:13Speaker 3:If you're in danger, I can help.

19:15Speaker 11:We're both in danger, Joseph. In fact, you're in more danger than me, especially if you're really.

19:21Speaker 3:On your line I am.

19:23Speaker 11:Then get back to the airport and get out of here. An unarmed American in this part of town won't survive the night.

19:30Speaker 9:Yet.

19:30Speaker 3:We're not in Hanoi. This is a way. The Americans are in charge here and I can take you right now. We can go, Joseph.

19:38Speaker 11:Look, I shouldn't be saying this, but if you're really here on your own. Something's going to happen tonight. They've been waiting for the tut holiday when everyone's off guard. If you don't leave now, what's going to happen? I can't say anymore.

19:55Speaker 1:What surprised Joseph most was the concern in her voice, the concern for him. After all her contempt and vitriol, they were still family.

20:07Speaker 3:Where's your daughter?

20:10Speaker 11:How do you know about her?

20:11Speaker 3:There's a whole file on you too. Yet you wanted by the Americans, the CIA. They know so much what it started.

20:22Speaker 11:Come on, we've got to get you out down here quick.

20:32Speaker 6:Stay close to the wall.

20:36Speaker 9:Come on.

20:40Speaker 6:Down that way.

20:41Speaker 11:The river's at the end of the alley. There's a sampan, a black and yellow one. Hide there, now go go.

20:48Speaker 8:What about you.

20:48Speaker 6:I've got a.

20:49Speaker 10:Job to do.

20:50Speaker 11:I'm still a soldier. You were right now?

20:52Speaker 8:Go Oh.

20:59Speaker 9:Oh, Joseph, Juliet, Juliet jeh yeh.

21:12Speaker 6:Lad, dear, Shall we are your sapa?

21:25Speaker 3:Are you sure?

21:27Speaker 6:I am?

21:28Speaker 8:If you are.

21:29Speaker 6:Hold me again to.

21:34Speaker 9:H are you going to die? Where are you going to die?

21:46Speaker 3:Where am I?

21:49Speaker 9:You've been asleep a long time?

21:51Speaker 8:Oh?

21:54Speaker 9:Yeah, my name's Tree? Does it hurt? Very bad? Mamma said. The bullet went right through Tren. Yes, are you my mama's father?

22:08Speaker 3:Is your mother's name too yet?

22:11Speaker 9:Yes?

22:12Speaker 3:Then yes, I'm your mamma's father.

22:18Speaker 9:So you're my grandfather.

22:23Speaker 3:I am? I am and well it's good to meet you, Trin.

22:31Speaker 9:Good to meet you grandfather.

22:35Speaker 6:Yes, that's me.

22:37Speaker 1:I was ten and it was the first time I met my grandfather.

22:42Speaker 3:Has she told you much about me?

22:44Speaker 9:Not so much. She said, you were in America.

22:48Speaker 3:I came back. Why to find your mother? Then? See you? Do you go to school?

23:00Speaker 9:Yes?

23:01Speaker 3:Do you like it?

23:04Speaker 9:Well, I'm very good at it. Everyone says that I'm.

23:09Speaker 3:Very clever and shy obviously.

23:12Speaker 9:No, I'm not shy. Just don't laugh if it hurts.

23:19Speaker 3:Yes, wise advice. Thank you, Trin.

23:25Speaker 9:It's okay. He's awake. Mamma.

23:28Speaker 11:I've brought you some rice balls.

23:29Speaker 3:Thank you, and we've been having a lovely chat.

23:35Speaker 11:Well, that's good you've met each other. We have to go what we have to leave you here. The night didn't go as well as we'd hoped. Me and Tren have to go north. We'll be fine, but we have to leave you here. Your marines will come in two three hours. No, no, ye, don't argue, Joseph. That's what's happening.

23:54Speaker 3:Two minutes. Hear me out. I can take Tren away from this nightmare, and you all of us saw out of danger. We can wait for the Marines. I have good contacts, I'm known. I can make it happen.

24:15Speaker 11:Joseph. Nothing has changed. We will fight until Vietnam is free. I'd rather cut my throat then go to America. I don't know what part of this you cannot understand.

24:33Speaker 3:Okay, okay, but let me at least in my wallet. Can you? Can you get out the photo? Where in the back? Yeah? Right here? Can Twin keep this?

24:52Speaker 9:Is that you in the middle?

24:53Speaker 3:Uh huh, well done. And on the left that's your grandmother when we were very young at a tennis match.

25:04Speaker 9:And that's uncle Kim. Yes, he was nice.

25:10Speaker 3:We talked a few days ago.

25:11Speaker 11:What you and Kim?

25:14Speaker 3:Yes? Well we thought he No, he's alive.

25:20Speaker 6:Oh God, thank you.

25:25Speaker 3:We didn't know.

25:28Speaker 9:Is he okay?

25:30Speaker 3:Yeah, he said nothing. He's like you too, yet strong. I admire that is that them?

25:42Speaker 11:Yes, they're coming, Trin. We've got to go now. Goodbye to Yet, goodbye, Joseph.

25:49Speaker 3:I'll see you trin keep that photo safe.

25:52Speaker 9:Goodbye grandfather.

25:57Speaker 1:Three days later we were in Hanoi. My mother never mentioned Joseph again, but she did let me keep the photo for years.

26:11Speaker 6:I looked at it every night. I still have it.

26:20Speaker 4:Okay, Hi, look you and Stephan Jackie Sampans.

26:24Speaker 5:See an idiot?

26:28Speaker 8:Hey, guys, in here? Where'd that come from?

26:32Speaker 9:In here? Now?

26:35Speaker 3:Hound's above your head? Oh hi, sergeant, who the hell are you?

26:43Speaker 1:Joseph was taken back to Saigon in a medical chopper. Then he was transferred straight to an army hospital, where his first visitor was CIA boss Mike tent.

26:57Speaker 2:Well, all right, you a side for so I?

27:01Speaker 9:How do he? Mike?

27:03Speaker 2:What were you doing in Whay?

27:05Speaker 9:Joseph?

27:06Speaker 3:Looking for my daughter.

27:09Speaker 2:Figured as much. What made you think? Why did someone tell you something?

27:19Speaker 4:No?

27:20Speaker 3:No, I just remembered back in the thirties, or family had a house up there and they used to all get together for the holidays. Yes, so yeah, I thought that maybe some of them still might.

27:35Speaker 9:And do they.

27:38Speaker 2:Did you find her?

27:39Speaker 4:No?

27:40Speaker 3:No, no, nothing, Drew Blank got shot? Not the best holiday.

27:47Speaker 2:Yeah, I bet.

27:51Speaker 7:You got treatment, though your wound was already dressed when they found you. How'd that happen?

28:03Speaker 3:Money speaks all languages, Mike. I had to throw in my role X too. Yeah.

28:10Speaker 2:Well, thank god you're alive.

28:13Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't know the time, by ann and I'm alive.

28:16Speaker 2:Damn looky.

28:22Speaker 1:The tet offensive brought home to the American public the cost of the war in lives, and public opinion turned against US involvement in Vietnam. President Lyndon Johnson pulled back on the bombing raids over Hanoi. They never stopped entirely, but with far fewer raids, everyone ventured back into the streets. Shops and parks reopened. It was summertime. There was talk of a possible truce, and on one Saturday morning, Mama took me out to the Dong Shwuan clothes market to buy me a new pair of shoes. At long last, life was starting to feel normal again.

29:05Speaker 6:But then one B fifty two dropped forty seven.

29:09Speaker 1:Bombs right over the marketplace. I was dug out four hours later and woke up the next day in the hospital. That's when they told me my mama was dead.

29:55Speaker 10:Sigone is a production of Thoroughbred Studios, gold Hog Productions and iHeart podcasts starring Kelly, Marie Trann and Rob Benedict. Based on the best selling novel Cygone by Anthony Gray. It is created for audio by Greg Hadrick and Jeremy Fox, written by Greg Hadrick and directed by John Scott Dryden.

30:17Speaker 3:Original music is by Sasha Putnam, with additional performances by Non mgnir and Letty big Cheer.

30:24Speaker 1:Editing and sound design is by Elouise Whitmore.

30:27Speaker 2:The series producer is Emma Hern.

30:30Speaker 10:The producer in Vietnam is fatmun Nihen.

30:33Speaker 3:The executive producers are Jeremy Fox, Greg Hadrick, John Scott Dryden, Howard Stringer and Jason English.