E2 - Why Romance Needs to Come Back | with Hak Baker

0:05Welcome to the WODcast, where we explore the power and beauty of words. We're your hosts. I'm Ben. And I'm Mabel. And today we have the joy to sit down with musician and poet Hack Baker. Let's get into the words. So, Hack Baker. Hey. Thank you for joining us at the WODcast, where we explore the power and beauty of words. Lovely, I'm happy to be here. It's a delight to have you. So your music, it defies genre. It takes us to a punk edge. It has a soulful reflection of folk, the raw energy of rap and grime, and the way you wield words to create entirely new emotional complex landscapes is just remarkable.

0:49So we are so excited to dive into words with you today. Well, that's quite the entrance. I really appreciate it. Well deserved, Tack. Thank you, thank you. um so our first question is what is your word of the day my word of the day is uh shenanigans shenanigans yes one of my favorite words feel it like uh describes me and my friends on my circle for the past 25 years i'd say it's always been shenanigan full yeah so i say that's my Do you know where shenanigans comes from?

1:25It feels like old English. It feels fun. It feels, for me, I don't know the time period. I dare not say, but it feels like 1800. I don't know. No idea. But for me, it feels like 1800 or something like that, dancing around the streets of London. Shenanigans, right? Am I near? Am I wrong? We'll find out. We'll do some research. but first i was gonna ask yeah how would you define shenanigans or what does it mean to you shenanigans isn't um shenanigans isn't full of isn't got cruelty in it it's just like the girls and the boys just dancing through getting away with what they can get away with you know it's not it's not done in a hurtful manner at all it's done in a quite mischievous clever manner but it's to uh just it's just a way of life to get through life i'd say shenanigans a cruelty free word i like that yeah that's beautiful i think that's how i try to live is very cruelty free you know i'm definitely against the powers that be i hate that i hate that you know it's always on a task to like separate people but like so i will do what i have to do to get my leg up i'll get a one up with amongst the people so and when you were young

2:49was there a word or a series of words that inspired you into that way of being thinking i think it was just like the music i was listening to reggae it's always like against the powers and i'm from old east london so everyone i was always seeing tricks of the trade happening you know in plain sight and um yeah things wasn't easy so you just had to get by to get by but as i said that start cruelty free yeah i don't believe that people should be hurt uh in order for you to get your way you know and if that's ever happened and if anyone's ever done so i feel you know then the punishment is due and you take what you do and you come out and you smile peaceful and you mentioned all these london is that where cockney rhyming slang is yeah yeah right yeah where they say um well around the sound of the bow bell you have to be born around the bow bells you know i was actually not born i was born in luton but by the time i was one years old i was moved to the island of dogs which is like east east east london east end And so it was just the language that I was brought up amongst.

4:04Although I was like doused heavily in Caribbean, everything was Caribbean-esque with my mum and my family and my dad and whatnot. But on the streets outside, there was always this language, this rhythm, these rhymes and this jovialness that was happening. happening and I was just hypnotized by it and I just became a product of environment and uh hence who I am and how I sound and how I act and how I dance yeah that's beautiful and something that comes through so strongly for me in your lyrics is this dance between chaos and calm yes and like vulnerability and strength and I just love the way you hold that paradox in your music is that from those early years yeah yeah yeah um i guess we were probably the last generation of young people that would literally go out and live um we left a few of us that was leaving our homes from like 14 15 years old and we felt that we had the power and the strength and the knowledge that was passed down to us from our parents and the community we had hope in the community there so uh they would elder people would look after us and and and lend a helping

5:17hand to us and if we was misbehaving they would tell us and whatnot so um we went out and we felt that we had the strength but we you know we also probably didn't have the emotional maturity to maintain ourselves so we um depending on each other a lot bounced off each other a lot and i think there goes the seance of between the girls and the boys at that time it was just like a dance of chaos and calm, as you said, and feelings and hopefulness and sadness, but we were all just leaning and bouncing off each other, ricocheting off each other per day to how we would survive.

5:53And if we could smile that day, our friend would try and make you smile or share their food with you or share their drink with you or whatever. So it was like it was that, and I feel like I've just grown up amongst that paradox, as you said, of all these different angles and spaces. And I think they're all relevant and they're all necessary to find yourself and then be at peace with yourself, which I'm trying to find now. Hearing you describe the past reminds me of Celebratory Times.

6:25Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is in one of your songs, right? Yeah. The Best Days of Our Lives? Absolutely. And yeah, it's one of my favourite songs. Thank you. I'm glad, I'm glad. How did you get to that? how did you manage to capture like I guess a period of your life and communicate it in a short snippet such as a song you have to love what you've done you know and be unapologetic about it I'm lucky enough to have loved what I've done and our friends and family that you know have supported me and made me proud you know and at the time when I was writing that song I must have just felt like that I feel like what I do is literally just a cathartic episode of how I feel of like ejaculating feeling onto the paper so that's just how I felt at the time and looking back at my life or our life because I always feel like it's plural or I wouldn't be where I am without my friends and family it's deemed for celebration we've held on to our character vehemently and not let it go no matter what has built round us or tried to push us aside or ostracise us from each other or isolate us from each other

7:47you're just not really going to get that from us so I think it's a celebration of bravery between my friends and I and that's probably how I felt at the time and we could be at a low but you just go to the party and dance and have a laugh and then look back and say, you know, it's all right, you know. It's all right. That's probably where it came from, you know what I mean? What comes to mind as you speak, Hack, and as you sing and in your lyrics is this word brotherhood.

8:19Yeah. And I feel like, I don't know if you've seen Louis Theroux's documentary, Mado's Fear. Yeah, I see a bit of that, yeah. And I just really would love you to reflect on brotherhood, on that word and what it means right now because I think we need your perspective on this, to be frank. Basically, like, none of us are perfect. First of all, I'm not perfect, but all that Manusphere is just rubbish. I don't really get how that's being rolled out and winning at the moment.

8:47But, you know, again, I feel like it's lack of community because if people had people to look up to within that reach, they wouldn't be looking up to, like, idiots online, you know. And men are allowed to be men, but men know, real men know that being a man is being empathetic and in touch with your emotions and close to your friends and being able to have conversations with them and not, you know, looking down at women as items or subjects, you know.

9:17So I was raised by women, you know, and again, I'm not a perfect individual, but like in my eyes, women, I was raised by my big sisters and my mum, especially, and my grandma who I wear in my ring every day. So, like, I just... Brotherhood... Brotherhood enables you to survive, basically. And it could be called sisterhood as well. It's all encapsulated in the same terms. My friend Tananiye, like, she was, like, academically a year younger than me, but when I didn't have anywhere to stay and things like that, she was probably the one...

9:55She took me in and, you know, she's probably going through the same kind of things of her family but washed my clothes and fed me, do you know what I mean? So I have this thing where I feel like I own my friends and family all the time and I always try to look to support them as much as I can and with as much energy that I have spare. So I think brotherhood again goes back to believing in the person that stands next to you and using them as crutches and being a crutch for them and i think it's a lifelong job that's what it is for me that's beautiful well thank you for the answer and i guess community what happens in my head is we need almost a reason to come together and i think that's what you so beautifully do through your work um because your words and your words i feel like we don't even need a reason and i feel like it's huge like it's naturally like it's human nature to come together why would you not want to come together with people and right immediately when i come in here and then we started talking i can hear our differences but it makes me intrigued yeah you know so i want to know more do you know i mean there's i don't see no

11:11barriers here so it's intriguing that's what life is you know we should all learn and talk and share like it's natural but is it just natural to us because we are lucky enough to have the consciousness and foresight to look past the as you say the powers that be that seek to divide us whether it's through technology whether it's through conversational silos you know I think a lot of people unfortunately have somehow been cut off from that natural instinct to community yeah and your music you know not to kind of be too fluffy about it but it does bring people back to that point I feel yeah well yeah that's our human nature is to talk and touch and share do You know what I mean?

11:51And I feel like a lot of it now is done on the communication device. Is that what you called it earlier? The scroll device. You know what I mean? Yeah, I love that. It's no longer a phone. A phone is like, where are you, mate? Yeah, sweet, I'm coming to meet you. You know what I mean? This is the scrolling device. I like that. Yeah, I'm trying to disassociate myself with the scrolling device as well. We're calling it SD. We're going to call it the SD.

12:12It doesn't sound good, right? Yeah, I know. But yeah, I hear you. But I definitely feel like it's a generational situation. Now, the younger generation, I feel a bit sorry for them because they don't have that need to feel to go outside and climb a tree or run down the street. They want to live here. But, yeah, I guess if my music can help spread or alleviate the mind, then hopefully so be it. But, yeah, I kind of do agree. I feel at age, I feel like under 30s, like under 27 or 25, they're just like, oh, in this place of this thing when the real joy of life is outside and and totally nature and people do you know i mean but yeah i guess we can all do what we can do to try and you know help and spread the word of communication but it's hard yeah yeah i wonder if there is a word that summarizes where you feel you're at in your life right now Oh, God.

13:18I don't know the exact word, I think. I feel like I'm probably at a turning point of a war, but when someone starts to win a war, I don't know what that word would be. But I guess that's how I feel. I feel like it's been a long, long journey within myself. And, yeah, it hasn't been easy. There's definitely several battles that I've lost, but I feel like I'm winning more of those battles these days. So, yeah, I guess momentous, I would say. I feel like the momentum is turning in my favour.

14:06so I guess that could be the word. That's beautiful and we have heard that you've got an album that you're working on right now. Yeah, yeah, that's what it's all about. Yeah, can you tell us a bit more about what you've been working on? Yeah, I was shuffling with exactly the ideas of what it was all about but again, my friend and my team was very adamant that it was finished even at the end of last year and I was like, it can't be because I'm changing so fast at the moment and I'm coming out, I'm stepping into a new place at the moment, it can't be, I need to keep recording.

14:44So that's when I realised, completely realised, I had an idea that it was more of an innate look inside, but then I came to certainty that it was definitely about, which is more of like a very, very personal affair. So that's what it's about really. And one of the tunes, I think the penultimate tune on the album with such a great geezer. I don't want to, I'll tell you after. Okay. I don't want to release it yet. Okay. And it's called I'm at War, you know.

15:17But yeah, it says, I say I'm going to win. So yeah, it's just about myself. I feel the power of that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to be selfish sometimes, you know, and go towards you. as I said it's good to give give, give, give with as much strength and vitality that you have and then you have to nurture yourself so I felt like I really needed to do a project about totally myself so I can step into the new shoes that are just outside the door for the next chapter I hope those shoes will be comfortable because these shoes will be rocking I love it it reminds me of your previous album titles because you have Babylon yeah these are not albums I've only had one album which is World's End of Femme but Babylon Babylon was a song it was Babylon people called it an album I said it was a mixtape right a mixtape yeah yeah yeah because I like seeing the story from Babylon the mixtape to World's End yeah yeah Lost Hope yeah yeah yeah absolutely and now it sounds like this next album is yeah does he slay the dragon slaying the war is aggressive look at the paintings in the room the war the war is happening

16:29but like I cut one of the heads off. They grow back sometimes. Exactly. Sometimes. They do. But you're on it. Yeah, I'm on it. I'm on it. I'm on its back at the moment. Yeah. I mean, I guess the reason I say that is because you have said before in interviews that you like medieval times. You like medieval music. You like medieval culture. And this, the hero's journey is very alive in medieval literature. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's beautiful to hear you reflect on it.

16:58I actually have a medieval poem that I found for you. Oh, lovely. Would you want me to read it? Please, please. Can I? It feels a bit indulgent. No, let's hear it. It's one of my favourites. And when I saw you liked medieval poetry, it is translated to modern English, but I would just love your thoughts on it. So it's called Love and the Gentle Heart by Dante Alighieri. Love and the gentle heart are one thing, just as the poet says in his verse, each from the other one is well divorced, as reason from the mind's reasoning.

17:28Nature craves love and then creates love's king and makes the heart a palace where he'll stay, perhaps a shorter or a longer day, breathing quietly, gently slumbering. Then beauty in a virtuous woman's face makes the eyes yearn and strikes the heart so that the eye's desire is reborn again and often rooting there with longing stays. Till love at last out of its dreaming starts, woman's moved likewise by a virtuous man. wonderful thank you i love that it's yours oh wonderful there's also some notes on it about yeah the relationship to love and i just think there's such an amazing quality in medieval writing yeah well they was out there in it like there weren't nowhere to hide i didn't have no SDs they had they would SDs okay okay scrolling device yeah yeah not STDs SDs they probably had lots of them oh yeah they probably did they had short life expectancies poor sons anyway but yeah they the way they wrote I owe and I owe it all to my English teacher Miss Starkey I remember I was lucky enough to have her from year 7 to year 10 so I unfortunately left school at the end of year 10, I think.

18:48But she always used to read, you know, Shakespearean and medieval text with such prose and she'd prance around the room and talk and use pitch and tone and things like that. I learned of her so much. And she had the knack to get all the naughty kids, me, Tommy Flay, Cassie Griffiths, Omar, Haled, like, to listen. Wow. And then she'd give us a chance to read as well and to say, you know, express yourself, you know. She was amazing. She didn't take no rubbish.

19:28And if we was ever rude or being naughty, she'd scream at us, chuck you out. But then she would never judge you for that behaviour the next day. And you'll be right in. And so I owe my love to her and, you know, medieval poetry and all that to Miss Starkey. She was a great, great, great English teacher. I just felt like, you know, they was really into love and romance. Probably all that they had to look forward to, you know, didn't have much else.

19:52That's the outdoors and love, the three things, the best things. So I guess that's probably why they concentrated and wrote so well, man. It's infectious. That made me really happy. just talking about love you know like we're talking about all this rubbish all these other things and you know um the vanity and rubbish but it's really only wholly only about love and falling in love with yourself and then falling and finding a lifelong partner and that's what i've finally figured out you know i mean so i won't take no i don't i won't like the love that I want need and want is exquisite.

20:32Exquisite. Yeah. I won't like settle for anything less, you know? So, yes. That's beautiful. It's a great poem. I really enjoyed that poem. Oh, I'm really glad. I mean, it's, it's beautiful to me how it finds, love finds its place in nature. And I think that's also what we've lost slightly is that the natural world is in constant harmony with itself. Oh yeah. You know, it has a chaos. It has an absolute, you know, the aggression and the violence, but it is in harmony.

21:02And it's like, as human beings, I think that's where love guides us, is to harmony. Are we going to hear some love songs in your new album then, huh? There's one, there's one. I think there's one, there's one. Actually, there is one, but it's quite sad, but yeah. Actually, there's a couple actually. There we are, there we are. I think I actually start talking about my love situations and why my heart is broken in there so which is I don't really I haven't really spoke about that before I've just always just spoke about the magnetic connection between people but I haven't spoke about my own reason why mine feels like at times just two negatives but yeah I think as I said I think things are reverting for the right reasons and definitely and and I hear a broken heart what comes to my mind is kintsugi the Japanese art form oh my god yes where they break things and they do it with gold it's beautiful yeah love that yeah yeah I went to Japan a couple of years ago I love my sister Japan it's amazing place uh how do you pronounce it again I'm not um native I mean I'm not yeah yeah i love that and i think it translates to golden joinery which refers to how you

22:28piece the broken parts of porcelain together with gold absolutely and you cherish the brokenness or you you don't deny it i think that's important never never i randomly i was with a goldie he's like i was and he told me about that he was talking about stuff and um he was like it reminds me of kitsugi there we go yeah and now i was like what's that and he explained it to me and i was i was overwhelmed that was amazing i thought what a great analogy what great thinking to you know fix things yeah with gold right make it even better yes you know i mean yeah it's wonderful i feel like the japanese language has so many and arabic actually too has so many arabic has 20 words for love i think and we have one yeah in the english language to summarize every form of love i think it's where other languages can offer so much more complexity to emotion yeah yeah i see that japanese they have all these amazing phrases and terms the things that humans just float through you know or go through and they've got these amazing terms typically japanese you know they always concentrate on the finer details suits them and it does help when you

23:42hear those concepts to kind of express what you might be feeling inside yes yeah when you were speaking about your english teacher i was wondering whether she was almost giving you tools to express what's bubbling inside i think she was man she's like a working class lady from that southeast london i think she knew the importance of these tools to um you know cut through life with and I've definitely used language to communicate wherever I've been.

24:18I think people forget, obviously words are amazing, but even the way how you use them or elongate them or how sharp you are with them or how you pitch them, you know, is so important, you know, to let someone know that if you love them, you accentuate even the love, make it longer. Enjoy it, yeah. You know, let them know I love you. do you know what I mean a bit of gravel on it do you know what I mean so yeah the poetry of words is just yeah when you add rhymes to it yeah oh god yeah I get that from my dad because like he's got this innate skill where he just talks and he rhymes and he looks at me and he giggles and he says you'll never be better than me I said yes I will you know he just talks at a rhyme all the time he's very good yeah when you talk about um words as tools it really makes me have this visualization of you hat going through the thorn bushes to find the dragon with your words yeah yeah you know like the words are the way in absolutely slaying these dragons and these demons the words to yourself are the way to win you know you curse yourself daily then you're gonna words are powerful spellings they're

25:34spells you know you cast these other spells on yourself do you know what i mean so it's like converging the words of goodness towards yourself it can be wholesome to yourself and you can start to heal yourself on your own you know not always looking for healing externally you know it's got to be done internally before you're even able to be a patient to anybody else so yeah i've just tried to use the words as kind tools even though they are weapons for that dragon that I am, you know, currently, the war we met last night while I was sleeping and all that.

26:09But yeah, yeah, it starts here first. We're going to take a brief moment to reflect on the word trunk. What comes to your mind? Trunk of a tree, the trunk of the body, a trunk that you carry items in. Yes, and all of these meanings, they come from the same Latin origin, truncus, which literally translates to lopped off. Lopped off? Yes, I guess the idea is if you think of a tree and you get rid of the branches, what is left is the tree trunk. And the same applies to the human body, right?

26:43If you take away the arms and legs, what's left is the trunk. Ah, so if you take the trunk that you travel with and you remove all non-essentials, what's left with is the core of your wardrobe. Exactly. So it really asks you what is worth carrying, what is worth bringing on your next trip. And it is today's word because it is also sponsored by Trunk Clothiers, a wonderful menswear shop. In London, in Chiltern Street. And in Zurich. And they have sponsored the episode and provided this beautiful outfit.

27:17So I'm going to get up. But before I do that, clothes, they do connect you to words, or at least for me, because I do feel confident when I speak, when I know I'm wearing something that has this contemporary style. I'm going to get up now so you have a bit of a better view. Wonderful. And for all our audio listeners, I will narrate Benjamin Aston wearing a beautiful, almost linen textured blazer from Trunk that looks very dapper and fits him perfectly.

27:48How does it feel to wear this Trunk outfit? Yes, I guess that's the important part. How does the clothes make you feel? And I feel confident. and maybe one of the reasons is that there is a beautiful pocket for my pen and it looks elegant suave you look suave suave i guess is the word and it's not too like yeah it doesn't constrain you good um but yeah before we get too carried away talk about clothes let's get back to the words in the episode see you there i have um a lyric that i would like to bring into this conversation from your song bricks in the wall yeah yeah yeah built it so high i can't see who i was before yeah and i was just curious to hear a bit more about this wall that you've built uh yeah um it's a pro and a con you know sometimes you use the wall so people can't get to walls out but you know the wall that bricks in the walls about is about foundation of people and solitude you know i mean yeah and you build that wall together and you together you become stronger you know i mean so you have the person who you was before you don't recognize that person anymore because together you fulfilled each other and made yourself

29:09stronger and that's basically what bricks and walls completely about it's like coming together and I'm winning. Come together and we'll come together. It's beautiful. Yeah, that's what we've got to do. As I said, propaganda is propagating. It's dangerous. It's very, very, very dangerous and it's easy for people to just take that up and believe it. We've seen it. It's not a new tool. No. It's a strong and useful tool. or if someone pokes you with the same message time and time again, people begin to believe it.

29:47But if you come together and communicate, then you can see and feel that that's not true, you know? So that's the use of bricks in the wall, you know, your own foundations. So you don't need to be empowered by rubbish or propaganda. We're in a really bad... It's being used badly at the moment. It's a bad place. And it can get better, right? Of course it can. Forever the optimist. Yeah. Are you not an optimist? I'm a little bit. I mean, my background is activism, you know, so I'm kind of, I'm a bit of the, like, warrior.

30:23Like, I feel it's important to identify. I hear you. You know, whereas Ben is, and it's a beauty. I sort of wish I was much more like. It's not delusional. And also what I admire about Ben is that he is so precise about how he uses words and I use words. So if I say, you know, the propaganda is, if you say it's that, it's going to be that. Because words are powerful. I think you've both got points. I think I'll sit right in the middle between a pair here.

30:50Do you know what I mean? Amazing. Yeah. I was more like you. Yeah. Like, nah. But then I feel like if you don't have belief that it ain't going to change, to be fair, but I do feel the change does come with activation. It's a balance. yeah we do need some action at the moment i think there's been a lot of talking and soft protests definitely and actions do speak louder than words i am fully aware of that i'm not just out here but i also think it starts with words because words for me they are a reflection of your mental life yeah yeah and the foundation that you so beautifully described is what we all need right because how can you feel secure in yourself if you have a shaky foundation how can you come together and support each other when you don't have the foundation for yourself no i agree i think it does start with words but but then i think it must lead with action after the slaying of the dragons they're not going to give up just by reciting poetry they're not they're not unfortunately um yeah i do feel like we've spoken about or you've spoken about the war from within and i do wonder if do you think hack that the wars that we're seeing

32:05externally are a result of the conflict we all hold within us do you see macro and macro in that in that sense um no i believe that the wars that we're seeing outside are just between stupid men and ego and old systems that they don't want to let go of you know they don't want to see the baton of power being passed over changes you know constant and i think there's psychopaths that don't want to let go of what they've had and i think it's basically as simple as that unfortunately i don't think these i don't think the wars that we're seeing outside are matters of men's or women's hearts at all i think it's all up here and it's all ego and it's all finance base and it's just rubbish and it's sad that people's lives are being spilled for the ego of man and on that note i was gonna ask you whether you would have any piece of advice for the men or the boys the men out there um what it is to be masculine or how how can how can that transition from boy to man be one that supports the the wider community I think people should start to use the tools that we're blessed with, our eyes, our senses

33:27our ears, feeling touch and use that as navigation, if something feels wrong innately in your heart then it's wrong don't be swayed by mass opinion or anything like that, if you know something's wrong then act on it look for serious proper leaders that are out there our senses, we're always looking for teachers. We're never too old to sit at somebody's feet, you know. So I think search that out, really, and listen to yourself, really, because there ain't no lessons on the phone.

34:02Yeah. The senses are important. You see someone that's sad on the street, my innate feeling is to try and help them. I can't stand seeing someone crying or seeing them sad on the street. I have to talk to them. and see if I can do anything to help them. If you follow those senses in life, then I don't think you can go wrong. The senses, yeah. It's beautifully complex how we all experience reality, I guess, in a very different way. Some might be more like visually, some might be more like auditory.

34:39And I was going to ask you today, what do you think, in one word, is the language of the universe? Love. There we go, that was fast. That was fast, okay. Okay, I'll give you a bit of context. I've been asking this question for about two months now, just people from all walks of life. And love has been mentioned about four or five times, but I have a lot of physics and math and unfortunately also money was in there, but also connection and music and dance.

35:07And what I really enjoy about this question is it's such a simple one. It kind of reveals a little bit about the people behind the answer. And so a joy to hear love. Yeah, I'm obsessed with love, I feel. I feel like, I felt there was a period in my life where there wasn't a lot of it going on, or, you know, I wish I had a bit more. And that was just due to the complexities of life and finance and time and whatnot. not so i think you know we complicate it a lot but you realize all the quests and shenanigans that was happening at the time were all quests to find love and belonging um and as humans we i figure we do complicate stuff and uh then you tell yourself you don't deserve it and then you go down a whole nother wormhole you know of abusing yourself do you know what i mean and then i'm 35 now and i can look back at things and hindsight had showed me and life has showed me what the mistakes are you can look back that i was making at the time and you can realize that there was all just quest for love and love for myself and searching for something that you feel that you deserve or don't deserve but now i know that i do deserve it so so back on the horse

36:35Back on your horse. Back on your horse, yeah. There's a really wonderful teacher called Alison Armstrong. I don't know if you've heard of her. Again, another person I enjoy sitting at the feet of and listening to. And she finds it odd how people refer to unconditional love. She says, why do you have to put unconditional there? If it's not unconditional, it's not love. It's not love, is it? Where do words fail us? Oh, in communication sometimes. but silence, as he said, my dad always spoke about the necessity of silence.

37:13But sometimes we don't know how to convey how we feel, you know, or sometimes we're scared to release those words. I know at times I've definitely been stubborn and kept the words inside instead of putting them out there to fly where they should be. Sometimes they elude us and we can't communicate how we feel. was one of the most difficult things, either in fear of upsetting people or fear of pride, you know. Pride is a dangerous thing. I'd say, yeah, words fail us most in communicating things that we truly, really want to say and in all ways suggesting the right of way to other people.

37:53But when it comes to yourself, suddenly one can become mute and you have no words to say. You was giving the whole world a advice the other day, do you know what I mean? So I think, yeah, sometimes communicating what we really, truly feel. Difficult. Everybody's scared to get hurt these days, you know? Yeah. Even though that's part of it, you know, nobody wants to, like, dive in and be just a part of the cosmos and just spinning, spinning, and whatever happens, the end result will be the end result.

38:26But, yeah, everyone's a bit scared of that these days. And I don't think there was in the medieval days. you get have a jewel if you yeah i mean i think that's kind of righteous you know look at my lady wrong i'll have a jewel with you i like that anyway yeah let's half ink a little bit i love talking about love and i have to sort of stop myself from going back to it but in in the emotion of love i find words that completely evaporate because it's a force that is so beyond the human mind's capability of communication that sometimes when I'm expressing love, I just think these words are fickle.

39:09You're touching it. You're like just touching it. I'm tired of it. Again, it's the senses, isn't it? Like this is just one, you know, sometimes you just need to be, just touch someone, that's enough. You don't need to say a bloody word. You don't need to say nothing. I need to say even a smell could ignite like a ferocious heartbeat you know I mean just uh and and then that um contacts the brain and then that makes invokes memory or feeling you know so yeah I've love is like I think uh uh a connection of all feelings I think smell touch senses senses you know like i think they just set it all ablaze you know i mean yeah and there's also one thing i've learned recently is that like love isn't this kind of soft fluffy thing like sometimes loving someone is actually laying down the law and saying i will not allow you to talk to yourself like that i will not allow and it's like we have this misconception i think sometimes of love being just soft and actually it's a ferocious force yeah it is makes people do crazy things especially in the medieval times war cleopatra and them and their back in the day yeah didn't elif write in one of her books that love

40:37transforms us yes yeah absolutely and it sounds like you're in this transformation part of your journey and one word that did come to my mind a bit later is chrysalis wow what does that mean it's a great one i chrysalis chrysalis so it describes the you know a caterpillar it goes into a chrysalis before it comes out as a butterfly yeah i'm in the chrysalis i'm in the chrysalis i'm licking that ben cheers i'm in the chrysalis definitely yeah yeah Well, that's exactly who I am, mate.

41:12Amazing. I love that. Cheers, mate. Love that, love that. I'd like to give you another word hack that came to mind too when you were talking about this point in your journey, which is anagnorisis. Are you what? Anagnorisis. Do you know the word anagnorisis? Can you text me his name? Anagnorisis. Whoa, whoa. So I learnt it from Ben, and for some reason when I learnt it, it just has not left. You know those words that just stay? Yeah, yeah. It just stays and it's just that.

41:42And it's, okay, I might, okay, correct me if I get the definition or meaning wrong, but it's the point in a character's journey in literature when they're a pivotal point of change where their trajectory completely changes. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't know if life works like that where it's one point where something like that happens. Maybe it's like multiple. But I thought about if we were writing the book of Hack Baker's life, it feels like a moment of anagnorisis.

42:07Yeah, I think, yeah, I don't think it's like one. I think several things happen, but I do think there is one point, there is a turning point, there is a pivotal point where it goes, right, that's it, enough's enough. Enough's enough. Yeah, 100%, I think there is an anagnorisis point. And he just goes, yeah, I believe that. So great. Chrysalis and anagnorisis, they rhyme as well. Oh, well, it's a new album. Ben and I will be like. I love that. Please text me that word, though, because I'm going to forget that in about six minutes.

42:39like yeah i love them we will add them to the postcard yeah lovely and on that note do you think there is a word in the world right now that we need to bring back a world that's lost a word that's lost meaning a word that doesn't so easy to say love again but let's not try and do that um yeah we can't just sit around talking about love okay i'd say romance then romance needs to come back yeah right calling it back calling it back hundreds hundreds hundred percent like chivalry romance may i ask what do you think of romance what comes in your life what what was a romantic moment when you now look back on romantic i call it it could be a bromance it could be yeah when there was a time where i was in one of the flats i was growing up in probably about 15, 16, and there was no eating, and the window was broken, and it was one of those naughty, cold London evenings, right?

43:42And I used to live in this bedsit, and there was just one room, and there was just a mattress, and it seemed, it didn't seem, it was a, all the boys, half of the boys could have went home, and half of the boys could have went back to their hostel or bedsit what they lived in but none of the boys would leave we'd all stay together and we would all like kind of spoon each other like a tin of sardines and keep each other warm while there was like a halogen heater that was turning like 180 degrees 180 degrees and like for some reason i was awake i'm always awake anyway but like it was cold so it's probably why i was awake and i just thought wow this is like this is this is true bromance this is this is romance of life this is romance of brotherhood here because nobody wants to leave here everybody wants to like suffer or you know feel the same together nobody wants anyone to feel less than at all so that was like a romance of life a romance of romance that moment there between the boys and i and i'll never forget it you know i mean so yeah that that's a instance of romance um yeah thank you for sharing that's a a wonderful memory yes a great memory the boys and i like they

45:06call it trauma bonding when yeah when it's all probably gone through like the same kind of things at home yeah and then you bond through things that you're all searching for yeah um and it happens like in animal kingdom with like wolves and stuff like lost wolves they just bond together because they're all like and then they make their own pack um and it happens in the street all the time you know people are looking for the people seem to see as like gangs or whatever but they they're misrepresented and if there was a place for them to go where they could nurture people would understand that those bonds and packs are full of love man they just don't it's just misguided and that's why communities needs to be brought back because you may not have a father or mother figure at home but you can find a father or mother figure outside and that's how people was raised before they say it takes the village to raise people young people and if that key person that key figure is missing at home you can find him with someone else's own you know i I mean, we had all those figures.

46:21Like, I love my mum to pieces, but at times we didn't get along. But I had other, you know, maternal figures that I could seek and that would look after me and make me feel nice and give me cuddles and stuff like that. So if something's missing in this world again, I'd say I'd go back to community. It's so, so, so necessary to raise good, prosperous young people so they don't all have to go through the same pitfalls that their father or cousin or someone to the left or right has to go through.

46:56It's not necessary. We can all learn off each other. I love looking at the word community, like common unity. Oh, lovely, yeah. That's what it is, isn't it? It is. I actually don't know. Again, we need to do a sort of fact check after the episode if that's the etymology of the word. but the the kind of common unity the thing that we all gravitate towards and around is a shared thing absolutely right absolutely so our funerals are like that when because the whole community is lost sanct you know i mean as we get older there's more we go and you know go into more funerals and it's just sad that it takes tragedy for family to meet up but it is where it is but like it's like a common loss in the community in so our common unity has been dissipated a little bit by that death you know i mean but in which i had to celebrate it but that's why funerals always try not to miss funerals because they're great yeah celebration of life you know yeah births marriages funerals it's often the only time that many communities actually come together yeah yeah Should be more though.

48:07It should be more. Should bring back the street parties and stuff. Big dinners on the streets and all that. Like they do in Italy. The Italians are great at that. That should be happening. People don't even talk to their neighbours and things like that anymore. Yeah, those scroll devices, they keep everyone separate. We've been also looking at the word should. and we've been not avoiding it just being conscious when we use it because if something if we should do something maybe we could you know nice i think it's a simple few letters changing and already becomes a possibility could yeah we could we could have you know say hi to our neighbors we could celebrate on the street again like but we should though exactly yes i see i see yeah we have this conversation yeah I mean it's part of our intention with the WODcast we actually want to start well we are we're doing loads of live events around words so people do ask us what is the WODcast and we have a podcast as you're experiencing right now and we have a live event series where we have one word and we celebrate it through creative projects

49:32through music, poetry dance and it brings you so much joy on the word shenanigans when we get to S because we're going through the alphabet so we've done Apricity we started with Ananda and ananda can you not it's sanskrit okay and it translates to bliss and in medical science you know the endocannabinoid system yes yes exactly so we've got two of the endocannabinoids i think one of them is called 2fa it's a very science name and the other one is called anandamide which comes from ananda because anandamide is being secreted when you experience bliss which i think is just so beautiful and the first what live event was around the word ananda and oh my god it was a rooftop ananda is being secreted when you experience bliss there we go so i've got a little bit of it going through my system right now i can see it's the words they get me um anyway so ananda was the first party that's how we kicked it off with bliss then we went to a pricity which describes the warmth of the sun in winter it was a rooftop party in december the sun came out was a bit shy but it was beautiful then we had arrow yeah um an event

50:54that we hosted in london yeah and then anthropos anthropos this is an interesting word yeah we were looking for a word to connect to international women's day yeah which is a bit challenge a big challenge a wonderful challenge and mabel introduced me to the word anthropos which describes someone that is fully divine and fully human at the same time i just blew my mind so anthropos was our women's day international women's day party yeah and that completed the a so we went to b we're going through the whole alphabet yeah it's got to be an epic life 26 years so how many so how many parties you do in a year and how many do so four years four years per letter yes four parties per letter wow you've got a prosperous career at least 25 years may I indulge in the B letters the B words so we've got Beatitude as our first one Beatitude is defined as supreme blessedness and that party was blessed it was incredible how do you know so much words every word I don't know what they mean and I thought I knew a little word and then you're blowing my mind.

52:06It brings me so much joy. I don't know. Did you study anything? You just like words. I just like words. I think it's quite simple. But also your reflection on them being drugs. Yes. Okay, so Rudyard Kipling, who wrote The Jungle Book, for example, his quote is, words are, of course, the most powerful drug used by mankind. And I see myself as a guinea pig, just seeing how excited... Drug addict. Yeah. Oh, boy. I do love words. And man, if you start a Word of the Day series and you keep going every day, you get hooked on your own supply and you just keep searching for words.

52:44Do you have that experience? Do you, with your own words, get kind of hooked and almost addicted to it? I do, I do. I used to write songs, I used to write down words that I found when I was reading and then I'd say like, I'll be making music and I'd go from my phone and say, oh, that word, okay, let me try and like uh spurious i found the other day spurious what does furious mean spurious um oh god it's like oh say things say things are all like a playing level and you do the one thing that takes you out of familiarity is spurious wow so it's like being a rebel basically spurious okay yeah you put me on the spot there but anyway yeah Spiridonis is the right word I thought someone said that word to me and I was like what does that mean and then and then I used it like in the song in the next 10 minutes so I love doing that I love using words Chrysalis and the other one I've forgotten and Ignorance I'll text it to you please yeah it's a tough one and Beatitudes is a beautiful supreme blessedness I mean, supreme blessings.

53:59What an epic word. Like, how come it's hidden, you know? It's hidden. It's hidden in the Bible. Supreme blessings. I guess birth is like a supreme blessing. Yeah. We all beatified in that way, right? We've all been. I beatify you. Yeah. You can hear that in our life. The king would say that. I feel like kind of like medieval short film coming on. Beatify. Jesus. After slaying the dragon, you're beatified. yeah i ain't gonna be able to get through the door of all these words chrysalis beatitude what was the first a you said ananda ananda yeah ananda is a good one ananda sanskrit so i mean sanskrit the beauty of words is they're abundant right there yeah there's endless really i make up my own words sometimes yeah you got a word that you lovely well I spell it my own way you spell it your own way lovely I can't remember any at the master but I definitely wake up make up my own words all the time not all the time but I definitely I think that's got to be a word and then I'd say yes that's a word should be a word yeah who like who gives who gives everyone the right who have made the concise

55:15diction the right say that's a word and we have to use it you can make up your own words why not Do you know how the dictionary was made, Herb? Absolutely not. I can't wait to tell you. So Sarah Ogilvie, who we'll talk to you about in a little bit, she wrote a book called The Dictionary People, counting how the Oxford, was it the Oxford English Dictionary was made. So it was such a big task that the scholars were like, there's no way we can possibly do this, until one scholar had the clever idea of asking for submissions of words from the general public.

55:45Now, who has time to sit down and write word cards where you write the word how you use an example sentence mostly women and incarcerated people one of the one of the biggest submitters to the oxford english dictionary was a man in a mental asylum who had murdered someone oh wow he spent every single day just writing words from the books and submitting them to the people that were forming the oxford english dictionary and women who were at home at the time.

56:20When did this happen? Not by heart. Okay, so there's a... We're going to have to do a lot of... There's a great film. Yeah, there's a great film called The Professor and the Madman, which is this story. Yeah. I recommend you watch it. Isn't that fascinating? I think you'll enjoy it. It's amazing. Right? But I would never think there was a murderer sitting in a cell, right? That's crazy. Yeah, amazing. And the women, obviously. That makes sense. Right?

56:44Yeah, that makes sense. but yeah I mean I find it interesting when new words get submitted to the dictionary so are new words getting submitted now? yeah yeah yeah yeah all the time? yeah I think like what was the recent one that got submitted? they're all quite depressing words like maybe Riz made it into the dictionary Riz yeah for Rizler right? no for Charismatic oh Riz has made it into they've got Riz I heard they say it all the time on the scrolling device yeah yes he's a powerful thing Riz It was the Oxford Dictionary Word of the Year, I think in 24, 2024.

57:19Riz or 2025. I never even heard it. I thought you were talking about Rizzler. No, no, Riz. I'm a bit disappointed in that. I agree. Like, a pricity, for example, is made redundant as a word. How can a word be made redundant? No. What do you mean made redundant? Like, if you go to the dictionary, it's just like obsolete. You're fired from the dictionary. You're obsolete. No, like, the sun is still warm in winter. Can I still call it a pricity? Am I still allowed?

57:40But then Riz has made it. Right, Riz has made it in. That's shocking, I'm sure. And do you know what next was? AI slot was the word of the year. What? Yeah, I think it was AI slot. Like, it's been quite... It's been quite bleak, hasn't it? It's a good word. Like, word of the year was brain rot. Yeah, brain rot, I think it was. Due to AI. Yeah. So we need some good words again. Yeah. I'm going to get on it. Shenanigans. People should definitely be using shenanigans.

58:03Yeah. Anything. It has to be at least four syllables, I reckon, for it to be getting in there. New ones. I love syllables because it makes rhyming more intricate. is that how you go about your rhymes you yeah i like it up i love to do that i love to like run shit like boom boom boom boom boom boom what do they call that that standard i don't know but yeah i i love to do that i think that gives me that gives me great joy yeah there's something about rhymes that i don't know what it is neither but i love yeah i love i love rhyme and rhythm and cutting words by using that i love that i love that a lot it's one of my favorite things to do ever yeah rhyming is i think my favorite thing to do and you are a rapper right i don't know i don't know i'd i'd call it i don't know what you'd call it man i don't think i'm i'd call it dare to call it a poet i'd say yeah i prefer that because yeah i just like that more i don't think um i think i know i can rap but like i find like rap easy i think poetry is more um obscure and like you don't in rap there's kind of like not rules but there's kind of a way out to do it and there's a way how many people do it

59:27millions of people do it the same yeah but when you're like using like a joist of poetry like that yeah do you know what i mean like you use imagery in your head so me a joist of poetry is like cutting through with words but no you wouldn't hear that anywhere else but that's what come to my head and then that's why poetry is like super unique so how you put together a set of words you know i mean not everybody even understands it that's true they don't need to understand it because it's yours i've read somewhere that rap for some is also an acronym for rhythm and poetry which i've heard that i really like that connection because yeah poetry is enigmatic sometimes you don't always understand you don't always understand it and poetry doesn't even even have to rhyme yeah as long as what you're portraying creates imagery i feel then that's what poetry is for me If you can sit, if you can hear like a set of words and it creates an image in your head, then that's poetry, I think.

1:00:38Or it invokes some kind of feeling. Yeah, yeah. Then, like, if it triggers another sense. Yeah, it touches the senses. Yeah, yeah, then I feel that's what poetry is. It moves you. Yeah. That's what makes you feel alive. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That's really interesting. And when Mabel read me that, and he was talking about the eye, seeing a beautiful woman, I was just thinking about, who's that beautiful woman that I see in my head every day?

1:01:09And then I saw her. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anyway. For next time. Another, okay. Just on that note quickly, separate note, I see that you, I mean, you are as i said at the beginning completely genre defying in your work that's what i love about you and your music is its creativity at its finest thank you and i saw that you've coined your genre g-folk g-folk yeah yeah i mean let's get that in the sort of dictionary of music i think so 100 right what is g-folk so folk you know someone that uh describes or sings about their time and what's happening where they are, blah, blah, blah.

1:01:53But G-Folk, I just call it like Governor Falk, really. It's got a bit of bounce to it, it's got a bit of a rizz to it, it's got a bit of, you know. Yeah, and I just think it's quite vicious and it's quite, you know, brutal at times, but it says it as it says it, really. I don't like to beat around the bush. If someone is what they are, then I'll call them what they are. If something is what it is, and I'll call it what it is. I just think that's what I do, really.

1:02:21I just point out things and say it for how it is and dress it out with a bit of rhythm and rhyme. So, yeah, that's my dictation of G-Folk, really. Just giving it a bit of attitude. Yeah, attitude is necessary. Yeah, I also think folk could really benefit from a bit of attitude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, sometimes it's just a bit... Like, no. like it's beautiful it's deep it's reflective but it's it sometimes you want like i want a drum i want the drums yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah you see the activists in you maybe yeah yeah the heart pacifist too two sides of a coin right yeah i mean look i've i've put down my sword i used to have you yes i have just checking i put down my sword because it's not the way to make change as i think you understand yeah it's not the way to do it the more i i believe the more you fight something the more resistance you actually create in it i agree and disagree yeah i agree i have but disagree as well because because like i think especially in the time of now like how many times can we keep screaming or talking or conversating about the same thing with no change you know i mean yeah

1:03:45isn't that apathy though hack you know i mean like not from you i'm saying that's why it's like first we've spoken with another guest about this age of anxiety and her fear is that we're now moving into an age of apathy where we talk and we talk and facts you know it's almost laughable what's being presented to us in the world because It's like, ha-ha, we're doing this and you can do nothing. Yes. You know? And so I feel the need to rise up. I just feel the means and mechanisms of doing it are different, could be different.

1:04:20And that's where I think. Okay, so what is it then? Love. And community. Enough people opening their hearts and joining together to create a substantial energetic shift on the planet without getting too esoteric. again i agree and disagree but i hear you i don't know i'm not saying i'm right at no i know but like i'm just saying that what what's it going to take what's it going to take because as you're saying that the powers that be are literally doing things and laughing yeah and they think oh what they're going to do is they're going to go for a little mark stand in parliament they're going to do that we're going to arrest a few of them and they won't do it again and i'm not going to do anything they're not going to um go without because we are the generation of consuming everything so we can't live our lives without we're still going to use what we want to use they're not going to do anything because they're too busy being comfortable which is true yeah so like what's it really going to take like we love this eight this has been the longest period where there had to be a cataclysmic war you know so we are in love with this comfort

1:05:38and nobody wants anything to happen yeah you know we're like at nucleus standoff everybody's got these things and nothing nothing and they use them as reasons for to let all these things happen in between and no one do anything about it so either we either we go with out or we go against i don't know i don't like to incite like attack on anything but like it does come to the point like what's going to give soft power you mentioned earlier that when it comes from the heart when you're truly listening to yourself you will find the right answers or the right actions and maybe that's what it requires is for people to maybe truly listen to themselves and whether it comes from slowness whether that comes from community whether that comes from medicines that might be not in the mainstream plant medicine next conversation i wonder i'm just putting out the words i'm just putting out words because i do think like if you're fully honest to yourself you're not going to go to war like but maybe i'm wrong maybe i'm naive and too optimistic it's an odd one yeah it's really i think it's very very very very difficult

1:06:59um the stalemate that we're at uh you know i think it's very very very difficult because because of because yeah i do have a word that i'm not that i think i know the definition somewhere back of my head but conundrum lovely is that's quite the conundrum there we go could you please explain to me to us what a conundrum is well i used it um on in my song i say on a corner waiting for conundrums you know i'm just waiting for things that shouldn't necessarily happen or to happen.

1:07:42And that's what we was doing when we was kids, really. But that is the way to describe where we're at, really. It's quite the conundrum. And I wonder, again, what's going to break this down, mate? is it a frame of mind that's going to happen that you're saying like globally where we go against something so much that doesn't need war but begins to topple things or i don't know again quite the conundrum like the conundrum a conundrum is made up of a drum right so maybe we just need to beat have the right beats or mark to the same what's the exact march to the same beat.

1:08:29I don't know, but it's just, I just wrote it down. The second part of the word is just the drum. I just like that. So is that what you do? Break down words and then go to find like prefixes or suffixes and stuff like that? My guilty pleasures, yeah, is to... I see you writing down little things just to find out. To keep track of the conversation. We've had some great words. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been a wonderful conversation, Mac. I feel we've spanned far and wide.

1:08:53Yeah. I don't have conversations like this. You don't? Not really, no. Well, you are welcome any time. to join us offline online this is the start yeah this is the start and we love these conversations I would love to join you to talk yeah come over for dinner yeah that would be amazing yeah we love that I love cooking and Mabel's an amazing yeah I love cooking it's my expression of love yeah yeah it's one of them you can taste it yeah yeah at home on the table yeah I missed that as a kid that's one of the things I first missed when I left home was like sitting at the dinner table yeah that was one of the funnest times most fun times when my mum would join my mum's hilarious that was great times um so we have one final question before we wrap up which is our closer question of the episode if there is one word that you want to be remembered by what word is that imperfect there we go i care how people feel i try my hardest to care if so and i feel how people feel um way across the room all the way across this town.

1:09:59If I love someone, I kind of feel like I have that gift to know if they are sad or happy. And I always want to try and do my best to make people happy. I guess that's what my job is, really. It's to highlight the common problems or issues or pains or angst of people and say them out loud so people don't feel like they're going through them alone. that's my empathy that's my love, that's my joy that's my job to be a waiter and wait on people that's what I like to do so yeah, that's my empathy Thank you Thank you, appreciate it Thank you so much That was wonderful Yeah, brilliant Thank you Thank you for joining us today at the WODcast for our episode with Hack Baker, the musician, the poet, the artist redefining musical genres.

1:11:00I'm so excited to listen to his upcoming album. And most importantly, he reminds us of the importance of love, which I found particularly poignant during today's episode. What did you think, Ben? I love how he then connected romance to brotherhood and brought us bromance, which I think is such an important concept absolutely the example that he gave the wonderful memory of him and his bros i guess yeah um that really made my heart sing and of course shenanigans shenanigans yeah we all need more shenanigans and i love the way he described it as cruelty free fun great word great word so thanks hack yeah thank you hack and if you have any ideas of cruelty free words it's such an interesting concept please share them with us we also would love it if you could subscribe and follow and like and find all our podcasts in the places and share them share with people who also like words um have some more shenanigans yeah oh and um keep your eyes peeled for the upcoming what live events yes where we do hope to see hack again yeah absolutely that would be really fun and then you could hear some of his music we'll keep our fingers and his poetry

1:12:15see you next time see you next Wednesday bye bye bye